For the past few years, I have had access to a group of 30+ Republicans by email. Many of them are high school classmates of mine. I am sure that they rue the day that I was allowed to become part of their group. Most of their exchanges they send back and forth are benign and cute, with frequent bad jokes about Democrats. Every few months, when provoked by something inane Republican politicians have done, I write them usually an incendiary email in an attempt to get them out of their Lazy Boys and actually get fired up enough to seriously question the damage their party is doing. Almost every time, one or two will take the bait and respond, usually by telling me what a flaming ass I am and that I am a perfect example of why our country is so polarized. Maybe they are right, but thus far rational, logical discussion about our differences has not worked with them. I believe the reason is that the Party of Trump is a cult and cults do not believe in anything other than what the cult and their leader says is so. I am not alone in that believe. Rationality, truth, and logic are meaningless to them.
The Judge Alito-Supreme Court fiasco pushed me over the edge, and I decided the pussy-footing, and tip-toeing through the tulips to avoid further polarization needs to end, as least as far as I was concerned. So, I sent this group a very incendiary message (as you will see below) and it started the exchange that follows with one of them, I shall call Bob. This exchange occurred within the past week or so.
I am sharing this because we are running out of time and, as I said, the Republicans are ignorant or seem to care less of the damage they are doing to our country and the world (e.g., discrediting climate change, supporting Putin, etc.). I do not believe we can sit by and idly watch our country and our world, simply go down in flames because of Republican greed, ignorance and even, God help me, stupidity. When one side in a debate doesn’t believe in facts and genuinely addressing the real-world issues, then you have a major, possibly insurmountable, problem. So, what is lost by tossing a little gasoline on the fire? It may set fire to their Lazy Boys.
I have changed very little in the actual dialog or seriously bothered to grammatically correct my words or Bob’s. What you see is what you get and definitely my opinions of the whole affair but based on fact. I think I have done a decent job of fact-checking. I take total blame for any misstatements, hyperboles, and generalizations. Mea culpa. This is simply a dialog between two people, one a liberal, one a conservative.
If you have a better idea for bridging this widening chasm in our country, I would love to hear it.
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DAVE incendiary comment that started the whole dialogue
After watching Republican “ethics” on global display essentially for the past six years, in light of the “moral code” of the conservative Jesters of the Supreme Court, convincingly revealed in the past few days, to admit to being a Republican and to remain a Republican, is akin to admitting to having had a lobotomy.
To continue to support the Party of Trump at this most critical point in American history is to reveal appalling ignorance and a dedication to replace a once great democracy with an oligarchy. To what end? Money? Power? Both?
God help us if MAGA continues to suck out once good American brains and replace them with cotton candy.
BOB response and my response combined
It’s people like you with blanket statements regarding republicans that scare me about liberals. I hate watching the news, but at this point no matter where you get your information, one thing is cleared… we’re screwed. And, although I never cared for Donald Trump and found him to be an egotistical bore, he looks like a genius next to Branden. If you think the world was laughing at Trump, just think how they feel about a guy reading from a script at a press conference then turning around to shake hands with ghost. Maybe you and Joe take naps together.
(I am going to address Bob’s statements, in bold, one at a time)
It’s people like you with blanket statements regarding republicans that scare me about liberals.
Didn’t you just make a blanket statement? I am not so much concerned about Republican voters as I am about who you are voting for. It is pretty clear that many, many (most) Republicans are “single issue” voters, whether it is religion, abortion, or the economy, or light fixtures. The products of your votes are frequently single-issue politicians. The “big picture” or “connecting the global dots” does not seem to be a normal trait of Republicans. For example, Did Republicans ever think that the Supreme Court would ever become a politicized body when they selected Trump’s conservative choices for judges?
Obviously, there are many, many good Republican/conservative/whatever people out there and I know a number of them. It is all about who you are electing as your representatives in all three branches of the federal and state governments. I live in Idaho which has the most fucked up Republican politicians in the history of the universe. Republicans in this state are electing men and women who are still dragging their knuckles on the ground, carry clubs, and can only grunt.
I hate watching the news, but at this point no matter where you get your information, one thing is cleared… we’re screwed.
You should watch and read the best examples of non-partisan news that you can. And read an occasional international paper, like the London Times or the Guardian, and their opinions of us. There is a lot of nonpartisan information out there that has been fact-checked to death. There have been hundreds? of books that have been written now about the MAGA era and the aftermath, and I don’t know one of them that is complementary of Trump and his gang. Maybe Tucker Carlson has written one or Rush Limbaugh from the grave, but none that are the truth.
I believe there is a very good chance we are screwed both nationally and globally. Right now, from a climate change perspective, the future is bleak indeed but that doesn’t mean we continue to support fossil fuels and just throw in the towel. As climate change worsens, global tensions will worsen, and wars and dictators will abound. Ukraine is just the tip of the iceberg. Refugee issues have only just begun. I’m almost 80 and I don’t plan to give up fighting until I’m either dead or committed.
And, although I never cared for Donald Trump and found him to be an egotistical bore, he looks like a genius next to Branden.
I’m not sure what you are smoking, but whatever it is, it isn’t what you think it is. If you think Donald Trump had an ounce of cerebral matter in that pea-sized brain of his, you aren’t paying attention. One or two of the millions of examples of his stupidity comes out in Mark Esper’s new book and all the other books about him. Trump asked Esper to consider nuking Mexican drug labs. He also wanted him to consider shooting protesters after the George Floyd murder.
Our current president, Joe Branden (doesn’t sound right?) is the same age as me, 79, and I don’t give a shit how much you and anyone else criticize him for his slowness and speech issues, he is a hero in my book. Most 79 year olds are either dead or snoring at the dinner table in some senior center. To criticize him reveals your ignorance. He overcame stuttering as a youth. Did you know that? Given his current agenda, I would say he now has the most difficult agenda any U.S. president has ever faced. Just look at it. With an open mind. To compare the intelligence and wisdom of Biden vs. Trump is ludicrous. Trump had the wisdom of a fly, all you need to do is look at the NON-PARTISAN facts. And please don’t tell me that all the fact-checkers are liberals. Also, the “Sleepy Joe” and “Crooked Hunter” argument seem to be all Republicans can fall back on. It is a tired, and over-used, and lame argument.
If you think the world was laughing at Trump just think how they feel about a guy reading from a script at a press conference then turning around to shake hands with ghost. Maybe you and Joe take naps together.
Who’s ghost? George Washington’s? Unfortunately, for all of us, Trump didn’t read from a script most of the time. And for that reason, he inserted his foot into his mouth 2,230,640,021 times and got us into a heap of shit almost every time he did. If you were a 79 year old president, would you trust your ability to memorize the State of the Union speech? One hour and two minutes. I don’t know about you, but I have strings on each of my 10 fingers to remind me of my name, my wife’s name, when I last took a shit, the difference between left and right, etc.
I do take naps but not with Joe Biden. The press would have a field day with that one.
BOB response
Hope you feel better now? Maybe we can agree…this conversation has nowhere to go.
NOTHING you will ever say about Joe Biden will change my mind about him, his direct family and his extended family. We the tax payers have been duped by all them in one way or another.
We can agree…Trump was and is a jerk. And yes he said and did stupid things. And I would never want to see him be president again. He is no longer president so can you get over it?? The point is argued DAILY, are we as a nation better off with Joe Biden? I guess from your perspective we are.
Our conversation is a total waste of time. However, it is exactly where we are as a nation. There are people much more intelligent than me, and maybe even you, with these same strong feeling about where we are as a nation and the direction we are headed.
Some would say, actually many would, that Joe Biden put us where we are today. And it isn’t a very attractive place. If you don’t like Idaho…move. Seattle, Portland, San Francisco just a few places in the US that seem to have it all figured out.
I should have just said…let’s agree to disagree,
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DAVE response
The only reason I can see for dragging everyone in your group into this discussion is that until we resolve this major polarization in this country, we can’t effectively deal with anything. Look at Congress if you need evidence. Most importantly, the resolution of our differences directly determines the future for our children, our grandchildren, our great grandchildren, etc. If you don’t give a rat’s ass about your descendants, then by all means walk away from the table. That, in my opinion, is a copout. We and our ancestors have made this mess and now we are asking our descendants to clean it up. We would rather avoid the truth than face it head on.
We have left those that follow our generation challenges the likes of which humanity has NEVER seen before. You can lump all the wars, famines, natural disasters, etc. from our past together and they don’t hold a candle to the challenges of climate change and its fallout, like wars, refugees, resource exhaustion (water, etc.) If we continue to “agree to disagree” we will solve nothing and thus we will definitely commit them to a horrendous future. Mega-natural disasters everywhere, dictatorships and authoritarian governments rampant, millions of refugees, etc. Is that what you want? Do you want your descendants to curse yours and my stupidity and ignorance?
I am a retired scientist. I avoided politics and remained appallingly ignorant of it until Trump got elected and then I woke up as did a lot of other politically ignorant Americans. The election of Donald Trump was the canary in the mine that we had allowed ourselves, as a nation, to become complacent. Overnight, we had a zealot for a president who was bent on converting an already weak democracy into an oligarchy, autocracy, authoritarian regime, dictatorship whatever, take your choice but definitely not a democracy. You don’t have to take my word for it, just pay attention to virtually all the political historians, columnists, etc. who really DO know their subject and they all agree: our democracy is in deep, deep doodoo and that makes Trump and his .00001% billionaire cronies happy as pigs in shit. Again, listen to the experts. Trump’s wake spells trouble and that is why we cannot afford to put him behind us. If we do, history will repeat itself and that would spell doom for the greatest democracy experiment ever attempted.
Finally, I don’t care if you hate the Biden family and don’t want to vote for him. Makes no difference to me. Write in Mickey Mouse in 2024. Just don’t vote for a candidate who is clueless about how the world works and is self-serving beyond any leader ever seen in our almost 250 year history.
Again, think of your grandchildren when you think “agreeing to disagree” settles it, and avoiding confrontation and rocking the boat is too much for your heart. We have to take the gloves off. The days of pussy-footing around delicate subjects is long, long over. I don’t know about you, but I would rather die knowing that I did my damnedest to not leave my three little grandsons a guaranteed Hell on Earth.
BOB response
Much, most, of your concerns I share. And it isn’t a lack of caring about the future that brings me to the point of simply saying “ let’s agree to disagree “.
Yes, we come to this point after years of mismanagement and poor, patrician leadership on both sides. Not just our country but the world is going to pay a very heavy price for choices that have been making for decades. You may have heard “ the sins of the father will be visited on the sons “. Eventually the rosters will come home to roost and there will be a price to pay for our lack of ability to address issues.
We conservative Republicans and independent voters long for, values that are seemingly long passed. And I think in reality most of us want the same thing. Opportunities or at the very least a good job with fair wages. Safe streets and neighborhoods. Common sense solutions to lawlessness and injustice.
Honesty and truthfulness. And on and on… SIMPLE lives with lots of stuff. And there in lies part of the problem, we are a VERY SPOILED NATION. Many who have lots of stuff couldn’t afford it. And many who have little think they are entitled to what they don’t have and are mad at those who do have. We are a country, like most, if not all, who are so heavily influenced by self interest and special interest that OUR INTEREST are rarely considered.
Now, global warning. You are aware that the planet has gone through this before? At one time the state of Florida had a strip going right down the middle of it maybe 50 miles wide that was the only part of Florida above water. In the close to 4,000,000,000 years the planet has been here how many times has that happened? This time it’s a big deal for obvious reasons.
Yes there is global warming. So we do everything we can to avoid it while
3,000,000,000 people do nothing, China and India, two industrial giants, are going back and building more coal plants. I don’t have any answers Dave.
I’ve read and believe a quote I know I don’t know perfectly but it goes like this.
We’re going to have to smarter to solve the problems of the world and our country than we were when we made the decisions that got us here. I seriously believe it could be done. However, I don’t think it will be.
I see Tom piped in with his two cents. He started this conversation. Which as you said, we really need to be able to talk about the issues if we are ever going to be able to move forward.
Enjoy the beauty of Idaho and try to forget the politics,
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DAVE final comment
NOTE: This is longish, so read it knowing that you may die before you finish it. But I promise it is my last.
George Santayana is believed to have said, “Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.” Laugh if you will, and I know you will because I suspect you know a limited amount about the rise of Hitler in the 1930s, as did I until the rise of MAGA. If you think the comparison between what is happening in this country currently is a far cry from what happened in pre-war Germany, then you have another think coming. A report came out last year that the global decline in democracy has accelerated. We are no longer the gold standard for a democracy. The wealth distribution in the U.S. is getting worse not better. Of course, that depends on where you sit on the curve.
I have always thought that heated debate is healthy but only when both sides rely on truth and verified facts. My beloved grandfather, an Adlai Stevenson supporter and his best friend, a Dwight Eisenhower supporter, used to scream at each other on fishing trips in the 50s. Once on the river, the fighting ended. Occasionally, one would concede a point to the other. I heard it all from the backseat of a ’55 Ford. They went to their graves as close as two people could be.
I have been a scientist for almost 60 years, and, as you know, scientists can do nothing without assuming truth is paramount and to believe in the scientific method which demands that truth and real facts to be essential. Most scientists are Democrats and liberals and that isn’t just a coincidence. You may have heard the quote, “Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts,” made by James Schlesinger on January 18, 1983, in The Washington Post. Fox News is choked with opinions, very short on facts. Science can’t tolerate opinions to be good science. Again, don’t take my word for it; read the experts.
I am normally not a serious person, and anybody who really knows me will tell you that, even TC. I screw around constantly. Read my blog. But, I don’t consider the fate of our democracy and health of our future a flippant and joking matter. I’m not going to weep for us because most, if not all of us will be dead by the time your worldview really hits its stride a few decades down the road, and given the current state of affairs and all the signs, I suspect your worldview will prevail, not mine.
I just returned from my 8 yr. old twin grandsons’ birthday in Seattle. I do weep for them because of the fact that your ignorance, myopia, and incredible selfishness will help to make their lives just a little more miserable than it needs to be. If you believe, as TC believes, that I am speaking from my mountain top as a pompous, arrogant elitist educated snob know-it-all, down to you, the lowly ignorant masses, then there isn’t much I can do to convince you otherwise, especially if TC sez it is so.
Many astute observers believe the Party of Trump has become a cult and cults believe what makes them feel good and exactly what they want to believe. If you do venture outside that cult, what you will see might shock the Hell out of you. Without question, we are the most spoiled, globally ignorant society on Earth. I remember years ago in the late 1960s living in New Zealand and finding out that Kiwis knew more about the U.S. geography and politics than I did. Embarrassing. I’ve experienced the same thing all over the world. Our egocentricity has no equals.
Time to celebrate because you have received my last incendiary message in my effort, as Mr. Who Knows All, to wake you up by pissing you off. Obviously not the right tactic but I’m not sure what is the right tactic; the global clock is ticking. I just finished reading a very profound book entitled, Sooley, by John Grisham. It is about a South Sudan teenage stellar basketball player who literally goes from rags to riches in one year (dirt courts to the NBA). There are many messages in the book but the one that hits me the hardest is how out of sync we are, as Americans, with the rest of the world, especially the developing world. I once referred to those who denied climate change as exhibiting the Ostrich Syndrome. I think I could say that about anyone, not just Republicans/conservatives, but anyone who continues to disregard truth when it doesn’t suit them. Rather than seeing a raging grassland fire heading for you, you bury your head in the sand.
I am sure I have been a thorn in your side over the past year or so, and I apologize. I am not a nut case as some of my HS friends in your group might tell you. I have a Ph.D. and a mountain in Antarctica named after me. I have only been committed twice to Happy Acres for brief periods of time. Once streaking at a Miami of Ohio football game and again trying to hang glide off Ohio Stadium. Actually I did release a greased piglet at an Ohio University homecoming half-time. I think MU won.
My words of terror are not much appreciated when you are our age. I am the purveyor of nasty shit. This should be a time for cruises, parties, and sitting around with your feet to the fire sipping (or guzzling) Martoonies. I’ve come to discover Manhattans late in life and I LOVE them. A couple of them knock me on my ass, which is pretty damned bony.
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